WinCnc problem with Z

[KickIt]

Backgound:
I am new, so I am figuring all my issues are self induced.
Stinger II 4x8, Windows 7

I have the machine setup for a couple of weeks and a having all kinds of Z issues each day.

Program is a Box with a Circle, .118" thick material

Below is a screen shot of the simulation error

I have been working on and off with Brandon most of the day and we seem to be stuck so far. We found WinCnc directory as Read Only, got all files set to r/w now. Upgraded to 2.5.03 and reinstalled drivers

Each day I run the Init button, set the Z to table surface, use the measuring tool to set bit and then use the new (today) Touch Top to set material surface. Some days it thinks the surface is too high and some too low (by inches).

When I load the program and run the Sim I get the new issue on Z.

Any Ideas?

My Z block is .505" thick, where is that set? Could the config file for it be wrong?

Thanks to Luke, Brandon and Jim for helping so far....

Kevin

[Paul Juenger]

Hi Kevin,

I think I'm having a similar issue. I always set the Z to the material top. I have the Z probe and sometimes it sets it .5" above the top of the material. Tonight it set the Z to .5" below the top and ruined the material. I replaced the piece tonight and then ran through the exact same routine and it cut fine. Now I'm scared to use the FTC for fear that this will happen on the second or third bit change. My Stinger is a little over a month old. I did notice that it has WinCNC 2.5.01 installed and not 2.5.03. I tried to run the upgrade through WinCNC but it was asking for a key.

As for the offset of the touch plate, it is in the macros folder. Macro is probably labeled "*touch_touch*".

[KickIt]

Hello Paul and JohnnyCNC,

Interesting that you are having the same issues, sounds like you got your machine a week before me. I am on the other side of Missouri in KC.

The version of WinCnc installed before we did the upgrade was registered as "Demo" so I did not have a key either. We downloaded from the Wincnc site and then unzipped the files. Just coped them to subdirectory and then ran the drive install file. That was it, never noticed it asking for a key?

I am posting the the Zip file: my CNC.POS, WINCNC.INI and the cut file.

Thanks,
Kevin

[JohnnyCNC]

Ok Kevin,

As far as the hokey numbers you're getting on the sim screen, if you comment out the T1 call at the top "[" and simulate it again, you'll get a size of "0.865" and the crazy min and max numbers will go away.

Simulate is taking into account the move to change the tool.

I'm not sure what the rest of the problem is, but if you'll restate it I'll try to figure it out.

[KickIt]

Johnny,
The T1 was inserted by the Cut2D software in the post processor.

Brandon added the Camaster post processors yesterday, it did not have any camaster specific files on it. The only way he could load them was to cut and paste into notepad on my side, the CrossLoop program would not transfer a file.

What Post processor should I be using? The T1 seems to be referencing Tool 1.

I will change file and try again...

Thanks,
Kevin

[james mcgrew]

you have to email files to each other when using crossloop

[KickIt]

Attached is the new error message.

It seems to think the top of the table is off? .125 is the depth of the cut and the material is .118 thick.

Sorry for the typing, heater is off and it is 30 deg in the shop this morning....

Kevin

[Mick Martin]

Each day I run the Init button, set the Z to table surface, use the measuring tool to set bit and then use the new (today) Touch Top to set material surface. Some days it thinks the surface is too high and some too low (by inches).


Kevin,

I am not to sure I understand your setup, do you have an FTC?
Are you setting Z zero to the table surface? and you are also using the touch pad to reference the top of the material?. I think you are combining two types of setup here



My Z block is .505" thick, where is that set? Could the config file for it be wrong?



The file with the touch pad thickness is called touchtop.mac

l90 g92 z0.505 [thickness of touchtop pad]

[Joey Jarrard]

I think this is a set up issue.

[KickIt]

Mick,

I may not be doing the daily startup right.

I have the FTC and the Auto Z.

When I power up I click the Initialize button, the machine finds it parking spot at 0,0,5.686

I then go to a spot open to the spoil board and run the bit to the service set z-zero and then click measure tool.

After that I place the Auto Z on the material and do Touch Top.

The system seem to know where the top is then. If I run the bit (Z) to 0 on the screen it appears to be the height of the material above the surface board.

In my winCNC.INI I have:
[***********Soft Limits*************]
lolim=x-7 y-.05 a-1000000
hilim=x55.25 y104.5 z0 a1000000
lobound=z-0.12
softlim=1

If change it to
[***********Soft Limits*************]
lolim=x-7 y-.05 a-1000000
hilim=x55.25 y104.5 z0 a1000000
lobound=z-0.13
softlim=1

I do not get the error but it is saying to cut .130 into the surface board if needed. I thought it should be set to something like .030 or such?

Thanks,
Kevin

[JohnnyCNC]

Kevin,

I'm at the day job right now. If some of the guys here can't get it figured out by this evening, I'd be happy to log onto crossloop with you and see if I can have any luck. I've done a little of this so I have some experience.

I'll keep an eye on the forum about it.

[KickIt]

Is the Low Z Boundry a reference to the top of the Spoil Board or the Top of the material?

It Seems to be to the top of the material because if I change it to as below I am able to cut at .125 without error but if I set it to .030 as a max to cut into the table top I get errors.

If it is to the top of the material it requires you to change the WinCNC.INI each time you change material?

[***********Soft Limits*************]
lolim=x-7 y-.05 a-1000000
hilim=x55.25 y104.5 z0 a1000000
lobound=z-0.13
softlim=1

Thanks,
Kevin

[james mcgrew]

low boundary is the amount it will cut below wherever lowbound is,, this was our next step last night, then the doggone familys get involved, my wife was standing over my shoulder at that point

[nih]

:.(

[KickIt]

Starting to make since?

I think I am down to these two things.

1. I think I need the Low Z boundry to be 0 at the top of the spoil board, so when I set it to -.030 or something, that is as low as it will go into the board. And I do not need to edit the winCNC.INI for every new material.

2. What post processor to use with the Manual ATC measuring block on the Stinger II table. Maybe what I have has an error?

See picture for Post Processor I am using.

3. HEAT in the building.... Lights just starting to work....

Jim,
We got to the High School just in time to warm up for the band concert, and as we pull into the school my son says, "Did you bring my insrtument?" So he warmed up whit an extra instrument they happen to have. I am 35 minutes from the school!

Out in the cold,
Kevin

[KickIt]

Forgot to attach picture

[KickIt]

When you create a drawing to cut do you set the Zero for Z at the TOP or the BOTTOM of the material?

If I set it to the Bottom (top of spoilboard) then in WinCNC.INI; lobound=z can be set to -0.030 and not need to be changed.

Does this sound correct?

If so, how do you use the Touch Top button with the Auto-Z block to set the material thickness so that Z's Zero setting is the bottom of the material?

[Paul Juenger]

I set mine at the top and then use the touch pad on top of the material.

[KickIt]

So if you set it to the bottom you use the AutoZ block on the top of the table then it will set Z Zero to the bottom of the material?

[Mick Martin]

There are a few ways to setup a CNC the most common two are setting Z zero on the spoil-board, which has an advantage when reading your .tap code everything regarding Z must be positive. Any negative commands could course damage to your machine. (I have a basic understanding of this process, I will be learning more when I receive my NEW ATC [noprob])

The other common setup is zeroing off the top of the material (this is the one I tend to use when working with my Stinger I)

Every time I start my machine I run through the same process.

Step 1.- Initialize this sets the following limits: High Z, Low X and Soft Y
Step 2. - Place the touch pad on top of your spoilerboard this sets your low Z (the deepest your bit will cut into the spoilerboard) then press Measure T1
Step 3. - Place the touch pad on top of your material then press Touch Top this will set Z to 0 (zero on top of your material)

I don't know if the screen shot helps.

[KickIt]

Mick,

Thank you, the picture is a BIG help.

I do not think I have a Measure T1 button, I need to look into this. I just run the bit to the table top visually and guess when it is touching. Hard to do with a boot always in the way.

[Mick Martin]

Kevin,

Do you want to zero off your spoiboard or zero off the top of your material. Depending which one you choose will affect the setup of your CNC, you can work both systems but there needs to be a primary one.

[demar]

Kevin-I also have an FTC and this is what i do each time I start.

Step 1.- Initialize
Step 2. - Move the bit down slowly until the Tip of the bit touches the spoilboard- then hit calibrate switch -You'll need to enter a couple of times.
Step 3. - Place the touch pad on top of your material then press Touch Top this will set Z to 0 (zero on top of your material)

[Mick Martin]

I decided to make a video because of ALL the questions about how the Z should be set... there is just too much confusion!

The video is around 8 minutes long.

With a simple three circle demonstration I show that removing and reinstalling the router bit after each tap file (to simulate a tool change) has no affect on the depth of the cuts even though the length of the tool will vary somewhat.

Note when and how many times I do a touchtop on my material. I understand that some people do the touch top each time they change tools, but this demo proves that that is totally unnecessary. All you have to do is make certain that you do your Measure T1 on the same place on the table for each tool. Note how I clean the table before setting the touch pad down. That makes certain there are no wood chips to mess up the pad height.

Setup

three identical circles 2" diameter
Route bit: 1/2" End Mill
Depth of cut: .2"
Feed rate: 60 ipm
RPM: around 12000

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/1233/circlelayout.jpg
Circle Layout in Aspire

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/5969/circlecut.jpg
Preview in Aspire

Link to YouTube video http://youtu.be/fxZqApffKTE

[JohnnyCNC]

Exactly what the Doctor ordered Mick. You show what everyone needs to understand. Once you've done the tool measure on the spoilboard (Measure T1) you can do the touch top ONE time. After that, as we see in your video (http://youtu.be/fxZqApffKTE), all you have to do is measure the tool off the spoilboard (Measure T1). The local zero (the measure you took off the material) stays there. It's calculated off the tool measure (spoilboard).

For example...

Say your material is .75" thick. You measure the tool off the spoilboard (Measure T1). This sets the spoilboard to Z0 (a blue box beside Z). Then you do your touch top. This sets the local zero (a green box beside Z) at .75" above the tool measured zero (the spoilboard). Now everytime you do a Measure T1, it sets the spoilboard as zero for the tool in the spindle and the local zero (green box) stays the same... .75" above the spoilboard.

It's kind of hard to understand but with your video (http://youtu.be/fxZqApffKTE), it's easy to see it works. You obviously were not inserting your bit to the same length each time, yet you cut to exactly the same depth. Proof, as you say, one touch top is all you need.

Great Job Teacher!![clap][A+]

Now if I could get you to just do everything from the spoilboard and not have the touchtop... Oh well, to each his/her own.[noprob]

[demar]

Guys- Excellent Video and explanation.

For those of us with an FTC- we need to calibrate it off the spoilboard. Then every time there is a tool change the bit zero's out at the FTC. It should be done after resurfacing the spoilboard but I do so each time I turn the machine on.

[JohnnyCNC]

Thanks Ernie.

I understand why you do the calibrate each time, but I assure you it isn't necessary unless, as you say, you mill the spoilboard (or move the switch/pad up or down).

Once you calibrate, that number is stored by WinCNC. It's pulled out and used everytime you load a tool and WinCNC does a measure.

If you do a touch top with the FTC, you will have to do that every time you change your material though. Even if it was the same thickness as the previous piece, I still wouldn't trust it.

Personally, if I was using the FTC, I'd do all my cuts from the spoilboard. Of course that's how I do everything anyway (well... nearly everything). I know there has to be a perfectly good reason to do the touch top from the materail, but I just can't wrap my head around it. Someday I'd like someone to convince me of the value. Sorry guys, I don't mean to change the subject of the thread. Maybe I'll start another one.

[Robert Alexander]

Good video Jedi Master Mick. It helps to see how a procedure is done. You know the old saying a picture is worth a thousand words.

[Mick Martin]

When I change from a roughing cut to a finishing cut (I have 2 separate files) all I do is change bit and do a "Measure T1" a TIP find a clean space on your *spoilboard then place a small pencil mark at the location ... OK.

You attach your material to the spoilboard find the location where you want to X0Y0 from, then you click on "Zero XY" OK ..... Nothing new. Don't forget it has to be the same position as your design software for example lower left hand corner.

Click on "GO X0Y0" just to make sure you are at the correct location. Now jog your router/spindle to the pencil mark on your clean spot on your spoiboard, write down to X and Y values given by WinCNC look at the screen for example X23 Y7 .... Do you follow so far?

Let's test it, press "GO X0 Y0" the router/spindle travels to your start position, in the command box/line in WinCNC type X23 then hit enter the router/spindle will move to that location, next type Y7 then hit enter the router/spindle will move again .....you should above you pencil mark ..... Correct..... This is the location where you place/hold your touch pad to measure your "Measure T1" same position every time ..... Remember if you X0Y0 is different on you next project you will have do do the same process next time .... Jog to the pencil mark and record the values.

- You have started your CNC.
- You have performed the initialize process.
- Placed your material on the spoiboard.
- X0Y0 your machine where you want to from your files from (on your material).
- Recorded on paper the values where you are going to place your touch pad eg. X23Y7.
- Installed your first router bit.
- Type in the values X23Y7 press enter "Measure T1" (for this project only).
- Jog your router/spindle over you material and performed "Touch Top".
- Load your .tap file into WinCNC and hit enter.
- When the file is finished cutting it might return it X0Y0 .... Depends on you setup .... Post processor.
- you can jog your router/spindle to ANY location on you table to change your router bit.
- Change your router bit for the next file.
- Type in the valves what you have on your paper into the command box in WinCNC eg. X23 then enter, then Y7 then enter.
- Place your touch pad on the spoiboard (should be on you pencil mark) and press "Measure T1"
- Load your next file into WinCNC and press enter (you do not have to jog your machine to X0Y0 because WinCNC remembers where that location isy).

Recap
Always measure T1 at the same location for each bit change (where you pencil mark is on your spoiboard).

If you have any question give me a call 206-226-8344

Have fun [wink]

[neal_meyers_jr]

Mick

Very nice set of instructions.[clap][clap]

I am printing this post out and am going to blow it up to Ledger Frame it and nail it to the wall in my shop and read it everyday until I can recite it from memory when asked.

I did learn how to set the touch pad and have the machine return to the same spot each and every time.(X"value" enter Y"value" enter) So now I am going to figure a way to mount it to the machine so I no longer need to move it around the table.

So a set of basic instructions on writing and running macros will be Great too?[book]

[Mick Martin]

Hi Neal,

Once you have done it a few times it will become second nature.

Mounting the plate is a good idea, just a warning make sure you are not touching anything metal, because this would complete a circuit and it would not work. The idea you are thinking about is the FTC (Fast Tool Change) all you have to do is change the router bit at the end of each file and hit enter, the router moves to a fixed location then touches the pad or switch then starts cutting. The only manual input is changing the router bit.

I have ordered an ATC should ship from CAMasters this coming week, it is the same principle as the FTC but this time the router in the case the spindle picks up the next bit moves to a fixed location then touches the pad or switch then starts cutting.

I am in the process of mounting a pad/switch on my Stinger I, I will post a video once it's completed.

If you have more questions feel free to call me 206-226-8344 I am on the west coast so I am about 3 hours behind most of you guys.

[neal_meyers_jr]

Thanks Mick

Always willing and trying to learn. [book]I watched your video on you tube and it was very well put together. [fantastic] I have several other questions so will try and call tomorrow. Look for a 770 area code