Strictly 4th Axis Work Only

[GJMATHEWS]

I hate starting new threads in any forum, however, since this one I am starting does not exist, I will start it.

What I am looking for in this thread is to share my 4th Axis experiences with Camheads and other 4th Axis Owners and future owners.

From what I am able to find, there are not a lot of people doing 4th Axis work.

When my company purchased its ShopBot almost 5 years ago, we were one of the first few 4th Axis units that ShopBot sold.

4th Axis is confusing and can be frustrating especially if your Z0 and Spindle Axis are not properly setup.

Today I tried out my CNC Ornamental Mill for the first time. I will post the photos of my test project tomorrow.

Needless to say, Bill Glenn has done it again!!!!

Thanks guys, there are a few issues that still need to be worked out, minor ones by my standards. I am running all my test programs and then we will fine tune the machine in the coming weeks. As for right now...


A+ Guys. Don't worry, we will get that A+ to a "Triple A+ Rating" in the next few weeks!!!

Thanks again,
Guy

[james mcgrew]

man am i looking forward to that, paul has a lathe in charlotte and there are several others, i have ordered on and one is being built for the greensboro show

i have bob cad cam lathe and wrapper for converting vectric software to 4th but cannot test it

jim

[darren salyer]

I have a small tabletop CNC that is breaking me in to CNC, much the same as James Mcgrews carvewright got him hooked. I also have a Legacy Ornamental Mill that i keep staring at, thinking, I'd sure love to pitch all these gears, and upgrade to Mach3 control. I'll be watching this thread with a ton of interest. Darren

[james mcgrew]

welcome darren!!

jim

[darren salyer]

Gotta tell you, i'm looking forward to a Camaster to use in my cabinet shop, but right now I feel like the dumb kid on the bus. every day is a learning experience, though. Darren

[GJMATHEWS]

Welcome Darren!

Man oh man I gotta tell you all. My 4th Axis performed excellent today. Better than a virgin on prom night!

I will be posting video of it shortly. Ran a barley twist at the end of my testing program just for kicks. Used an inch and a quarter flat mill to hog and fine tune a piece of 10 quarter by 10 quarter down to a 2 inch cylinder. Over the 24 inch length. Bill and Josh were only off by .02 inches!!!!!!! With everything going so well, I threw a Barley twist bit into an ISO, reset my Z Height and ran the same program I used to turn the cylinder!!! Man oh man!!! This is a dream come true!

I had to shim my spindle which I already knew. It is now plum and a right angle to any end mill bit. The mechanics on the machine are just about all unkinked and now the last thing is the software and the ini files need some tweaking.

Man Bill, you guys are the best!!!!!! I think I might have to give my ShopBot to charity!

Photos to follow and video of the CNC Cobra Ornamental Mill in action very shortly!!!!

Peace to all, Merry Christmas to those who celebrate, Happy Belated Chanaukah...(forgive spelling) and a Happy Kwa... aaahhh the heck with it...

Have a great week everyone. Will post photos and video over my holiday time off!

[GJMATHEWS]

:DAs promised, here is a quick video of our test program for our 4th Axis setup on our new machine. More to follow in the coming weeks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RIPsZHinSc

[james mcgrew]

guy that is excellent!! i will forward this to paul in charlotte he has the recoil as well !!! we will be going to greensboro and using my router for demo, joey has said they will hopefully have the minicobra with lathe there as well i hope you can make it we could use a great demo man!!

jim

[GJMATHEWS]

In my photo album you will see my newest screenshots of a 4th Axis Project to end all 4th Axis projects. I have spent about 3 weeks configuring a 3D model of a pole dance on a cylinder. If my tool pathing will allow, this 3D model will become one of the new canes I will offer at www.bikerkickstands.com I will be posting screen shots of tool pathing and videotaping the carving process start to finish. Wish me luck! My most ambitious project to date!:D

http://www.camheads.org/member.php?u=190

[GJMATHEWS]

This is how a machine is supposed to look! I'll pay a kid a few bucks to clean it up at the end of the day!

Laughing all the way to the bank![lol]

[darren salyer]

Impressive, to say the least. [fantastic]

[GJMATHEWS]

Impressive, to say the least. [fantastic]

Once again, thank you. Always nice to hear it from others in the industry. Customers, 99.9 percent of the time flip out. The real compliments come from other woodworkers! Those are the ones that always mean the most. :)

[james mcgrew]

you have my awe and admiration as well!!

jim

[jrj5x5]

This is how a machine is supposed to look! I'll pay a kid a few bucks to clean it up at the end of the day!

Laughing all the way to the bank![lol]
IS THAT A SHOPBOT??????????? [nih]
in the post with all the dust.

[GJMATHEWS]

IS THAT A SHOPBOT??????????? [nih]
in jims post with all the dust.

Yes, if you notice, I am using it as a table! :D

[Russ Revels]

Looks like it makes a good table as long as you don't put too much on it.

[GJMATHEWS]

Here are some photos of a Rocking Motorcycle I have been working on in my spare time. I have 11 more parts to mill and then I will make the rocking base for it.

[darren salyer]

friggin incredible work man. Just when I start to get a little bit of a big head, from hearing compliments from non woodworking friends who have no idea about this stuff, someone comes along and makes me think " I'm not worthy" all over again..........I'm not even in the same book, much less on the same page as that kind of work....Be very proud!!!

[GJMATHEWS]

friggin incredible work man. Just when I start to get a little bit of a big head, from hearing compliments from non woodworking friends who have no idea about this stuff, someone comes along and makes me think " I'm not worthy" all over again..........I'm not even in the same book, much less on the same page as that kind of work....Be very proud!!!

You must remember... First we crawl, then we walk, finally, we run. Then one day, someone comes along who runs a little faster.
Stay focused, do not discourage if something does not work. Push the envelope, the computer, your imagination and the machine, (safely!) and you will be the one out-running me. My job demanded that I pull off what seems to be the impossible. The sad thing for me, is that I will die, long before I ever get to make all the things that are whirling around in my head. Even if I live another 50 years, the technology that we have at our fingertips will allow us to do things we never thought possible 20 years ago.

I provide these two links as evidence...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparent_aluminum

and now this link describing Alon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxynitride

What was mentioned in Star Trek The Voyage Home, "Transparent Aluminum" is now a reality.
If you wish to outrun someone the first thing to do is believe you can. The second thing, is to do it.

Thanks for the wonderful comments on my work. Keep striving to be the best at what you do, ask lots of questions, and when someone tells you it can't be done, prove them wrong by doing it.

By the way, the frame was not made using CNC. The frame is laminated strips of oak that I bent in a jig then rounded over on a router table. All the other stuff was CNC. [noprob]

[darren salyer]

Funny you would say that about the frame...I was looking at the pics closely earlier, thinking " I could bend up the frame from laminations, but thats about it." I never let other peoples work be discouraging, i always see it as a goal to work towards.

[GJMATHEWS]

Here is a screen shot of the first tool path for my Carved Spotted Owl Project. Think of the views this is going to get on Youtube. "Man carves up a Spotted Owl on a CAMaster CNC Machine!" The treehuggers are going to go nuts on this one! [lol]

[GJMATHEWS]

One of the very first 3D models I worked on was 3 years ago. It was for a Pumpkin Leg. The leg is named because the reeds or bulges get smaller on the ends and larger in the center. (Like a pumpkin. ;)) Anyhow, that program from start to finish took me almost a week to figure out.

Since then, the leg and the variations of shape, size, twist and number of reeds has changed so often that the leg no longer presents any challenge at all. On average, I can produce most 3D models for furniture parts in less than 1 hour.

This leg came to me last week from one of our customers. 3D rendering, tool path and proofing took just under 3 hours. The only requirement of this program now is to change the stock and run the program.

The program includes 1/2 inch ball mill roughing. 1/8 inch ball mill finishing. 1/2 inch end mill to turn leg post and remove head and tail stock for cutoff. Final bit is a 15 degree V-bit to mark centerline for band saw separation of the two legs.

Run time is 90 minutes start to finish.

If you would like me to produce a 3D model of this leg or any other style leg, just email me a sketch with dimensions and I can make a 3D model for you. Yes there is a charge. 3D models that are purchased are yours to do with as you please.

[Russ Revels]

Guy looks like you have the 3d lathe work down pat. The furniture you make must really be something. I know the table with the baseball bat legs was neat.

I am looking forward to getting my machine running this weekend. I will concentrate on the 3 axis router initially.

Russ

[GJMATHEWS]

I have to say "thanks" and admit envy at the same time. The fact that you are wiring your own machine is blowing my mind. I think I am going to have to get into this building machine stuff. Time to buy an old machine on eBay and rip it apart and put it back together to see what makes it tick.

As for the furniture our company builds, our customers are some of the top designers you can find. Every month, I can pick up an Architectural Digest and find something that we have manufactured.

The designers get the glory and the big bucks and complain to us when we have to raise hourly shop rates because health insurance premiums are going through the roof.

When you get your indexer running, I am an email away.

Guy

[Russ Revels]

Good Morning Guy,

It is all a matter of what you are familiar with. I have been working in electronics for 40 years. I understand the wiring and most of the mechanics. I don't have the expertice in mechanics to build a really accurate machine. That's where Camaster comes in. I am a little slow on the uptake when it comes to software. It takes a while to get past the "it doesn't work like autocad" point and start figuring out how it works.

I have the 3 axis running now and will start looking at the 4th. I can rig the 4th temporarily. The stepper and Gecko can use the same power supply that runs the servos so it isn't a big deal. Just a matter of physical arrangement in the box.

I really like the owls and the pumpkin. Keep the photos coming.

Russ

[GJMATHEWS]

Just spent the morning of March 4th moving my gantry over 6 inches to allow more tool path options on my 4th axis. The gantry was only long enough to allow me to do parallel finishing. By moving it, I lost 3.25 inches of tabletop on my Y, but gained over 6 inches on the Y over the A axis centerline. Basically what that means is, any tool path operation that can be performed on the table top within a 12 inch wide by 8 foot long quadrant, can now be performed on my 4th axis indexer 6 inches in the -Y and 6 inches in the +Y.

Took a few minutes to reset the ini files and the machine is now up and running ready to carve, cut and groove!

[Russ Revels]

Good Morning,

That is interesting about having the spindle cross the 4th axis. I suspect that will allow cross carving in addition to the length wise carving. Amazing capability that CAMaster gives us to be able to adjust the gantry like that. I think that pescado_loco would be ecstatic to be able to do that with his shop sabre but such is not the case.

I have been running my router a good bit but haven't completed the new box for the 4th axis drive. I'm having too much fun with the router to be in a big hurry for anything else at the moment.

Russ

[Eric Mims]

Looks good Guy. Did you have to reset the tool changer location in the ini?

[GJMATHEWS]

No just the table width. The G28 cordinate for the Y axis. It is located at the bottom of the ini file.

Once I change the location of the G28 Switch plate to regain a few inches of tabletop, I will have to remap for the Z tool offset and calibration switch and the ATC itself. I will do this when I get ready to change the ATC location to the X 130 position on my table. Then I will be able to carve 10 foot columns.

The only other position I had to change was may Lathe Position.

[noprob]

[GJMATHEWS]

Just finished my transition to a gear drive on my A axis... (indexer, lathe, 4th axis rotary, choose whichever you are comfortable or familiar with.)

New resolution for A axis is dialed in and I am ready to run. Broke 2 belts on 2 different programs.

Torque from the spindle puts to much tension on the belts when the side of the bit encounters end grain during certain milling operations. The gear system and compensation idler on this setup alleviates the problem of broken belts. Should too much torque arise now, the spring will let the drive gear pop away from the gear on the headstock. It will cause a missed step or two, but that is about it. More then enough time to stop the machine and correct the problem.

Not nearly as bad as when a belt breaks and the part starts free spinning because the bit is turning at 15K!!!

The first time was a "Depends moment!" The second time, I ordered my gear system and went to work with the aluminum! :)

More photos in my album.

[Joey Jarrard]

Thats cool I am going to have bill look at this in the am. I like it man.
run a good file on it let us know how it does.
any wear on the gears?
how the spring works if there are any bumps from the grain in the wood.

Great looking man. [fantastic]

Joey

[GJMATHEWS]

Thats cool I am going to have bill look at this in the am. I like it man.
run a good file on it let us know how it does.
any wear on the gears?
how the spring works if there are any bumps from the grain in the wood.

Great looking man. [fantastic]

Joey

Joey, et al.

I sent an email to Eric last night explaining this. I can't take full credit for this concept just the ability to steal it and make the concept reality. For those of you who are truly observant, in some of my photos you will see a BLUE CNC MACHINE. Their XY steppers are mounted on a similar setup. I merely stole the concept and modified it to my needs. By changing the design of the bracket and the hardware, it merely appears that I had a brainstorm.

There are only two original ideas in the whole world. (IMHO)

The idea for the wheel, and the idea to steal it. Everything else has evolved from that. What makes me different from other people is...

I admit it!

[lol]

BTW, I cut the the bracket on the BLUE MACHINE. Sorry Joey, I had other things on the CAMaster table being cut.

I will run one of the files today that was responsible for breaking one of the belts. Video to follow shortly.

[pescado_loco]

:DAs promised, here is a quick video of our test program for our 4th Axis setup on our new machine. More to follow in the coming weeks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RIPsZHinSc
:confused:
Russ & I just finished roughing our first four walnut table legs. The legs were simple 2" dia at the top & tapered down to 1". The first one took about 2 hours & the fourth one about 30 min. We were using a 1/2" 2 flute end mill. The 10/4 stock was not very straight so roughing went slow.

We were wondering what size & kind of cutter you used for roughing in the above video?

[GJMATHEWS]

Cogratulations! Glad to hear the 4th axis is up and running.

The bit I used for roughing in that video was a 1 & 5/8 inch straight flute router bit with a half inch shank. I was cutting at about 2500 IPM's on the rotary and hogging from .25 to .875 on the inital square cut stock. After the corners come off, you can increase your speed. (Rotary cutting speeds are faster then linear to prevent bit burning.)

With my new gear drive in place, I can go much quicker. Video will be up shortly of the gear system in action carving some pumpkin legs.

Do not be depressed or discouraged, you can not believe how many times I have gone back to the drawing board and have had to redo things to get optimum results. Soon enough, experience will be on your side.

Keep it up. Post some pictures of the legs. Good, bad or indifferent, I am anxious to see your progress.

Guy

[Russ Revels]

Here are some pictures of our first attempt at using the lathe. I'll have to look for some different bits to use. This isn't using the 4th axis for real just spinning the lathe and cutting with the router spindle. The results were pretty good for the first time.

Russ

[GJMATHEWS]

:DHere are some pictures of our first attempt at using the lathe. I'll have to look for some different bits to use. This isn't using the 4th axis for real just spinning the lathe and cutting with the router spindle. The results were pretty good for the first time.

Russ

Results are excellent for your first time! [fantastic]

If your rotary is set up on the X, then move your Y half the distance of the bit you are cutting with. This way, you are cutting with the outside radius of the bit instead of the side that is over the rotary axis centerline. As your bit travels the length of the piece, you will notice a cleaner cut. You will see a big difference this way. When you go back to carving or engraving, move the axis back to centerline.

If your rotary is setup on Y axis, move the X axis half the distance of the bit you are using.

My helpful tip of the day!

Guy

[Russ Revels]

Thanks Guy, I will try that tomorrow night. I have the bit centered over the lathe at the moment. I hadn't thought about the bit being to the side and cutting toward the centerline.

Russ

[Joey Jarrard]

Great going. Keep it up I need to build me one and learn all this 2.

[pescado_loco]

:D Thanks for the encouragement & tips. I think we will be down to 15 min on the next go around. I was not planning on the first few legs being usable. To my suprise with a little touch up these will go on a table.[lol]

[Russ Revels]

Some pictures of my lathe test tonight. The offset cutter produced a nice smooth surface. Thanks Guy. I still have to figure out how to do the code for the axis. I guess I am to lazy to write it manually. I keep trying to find a simpler way. This is supposed to be a spindle for a paper towel holder. :confused: The right end is supposed to match the left end and is glued to the ring. At least that is my intent. I left it on the lathe so I can still tinker with it next time I get a chance.

Russ

[GJMATHEWS]

Russ, It is hard to tell from the photo but it appears as though you did the ring detail and the head and tail stock removal with the bit still offset. I do not know if this was planned or accidental, but to get the rings and what not to have a clean edge, the bit needs to come back to Rotary Axis centerline.

If your machine is leaving a dig out when you do this, it means that your Z axis is not true or the bottom of your end mill has an angled edge

. I fixed this problem on my machine by using the 1 and 5/8 router bit and adjusting my Z axis with shims Until I achieved the optimum cutting result. I shimmed out .03 inches on the bottom to bring my Z axis 90 degrees vertical. Before you do all this though, make sure the bit you are using has a true straight edge on the bottom. If the edge is angled up to the center of the bit, the bit will create the gouging you saw when you first started roughing especially on rotary operations. That is the main reason for offsetting during the roughing and smoothing process. Thereafter, it comes down to your machine being true and the proper bits for the job.

If all else fails, pour yourself a few cocktails and in a little while everything will appear straight...

Until you sober up!

[lol]

[Russ Revels]

[QUOTE=GJMATHEWS;1001]Russ, It is hard to tell from the photo but it appears as though you did the ring detail and the head and tail stock removal with the bit still offset. I do not know if this was planned or accidental, but to get the rings and what not to have a clean edge, the bit needs to come back to Rotary Axis centerline.

Good Morning Guy,

Sometimes I have a hard time getting my head straight. I was looking at the spindle last night and asking myself "Why is there a radius on the shoulders of my cuts?". NOW I KNOW. DUH. [lol]

I won't be able to work on it tonight because I have another project I have to finish ( should have done it last night). Probably Thursday night will be the next opportunity. That will give me a chance to work on a finish pass code file.

Russ

[Russ Revels]

A little more time with the lathe and the process is getting better. I am understanding the procedures for getting a good surface. I made a final cut on my spindle for my paper towel holder. I changed the bit to a .25 centercut endmill. The wood shifted in the chuck and so it wasn't perfect but after manually writing the code to make the last pass it came out close to what I was looking for. It fits in the rest of the holder :) so that is a start. I forgot to take the camera to the shop so I don't have a picture of the final parts. I will take one tomorrow. I cut it to length on the chop saw and so now can use it in the shop.

Russ

[Russ Revels]

Here are some pictures of my paper towel spindle and also a test with a piece of pine. I was experimenting with making a table leg shape. I found that moving the cutter from the tailstock to the chuck produces a very nice finish. Almost no sanding required. The arcs on the spindle are cut at a very slow 1 ipm rate to get the smooth arc.

I am pleased with what I have discovered and with Guy watching over my shoulder I think I am ready to make a real table leg now. :)

Thanks again Guy.

Russ

[GJMATHEWS]

Since you have gotten this far...

Time to take your leg to the next level. Toward the top leave a little extra stock during your roughing. Change bits to a point roundover, .25 .375 something like that and write a code to turn the leg so that you can put a bead detail on the leg.

If the legs are going to be straight you can drill for stretchers. If the legs are going to be angled you can mark the center hole for stretchers and then take them to a compund drill press for boring. Either way, you have the leg inposition to layout for stretchers. Doing either step now will save you time later on down the road.

My tip of the day.

Excellent work Russ. If you came out of retirement, let us know! [fantastic]

[PJS]

Hey Guy,
I think your Cam and mine are identical and I was curious as to the resolution on your 4th axis. When I program a rotational point to point of 1.0", the axis actually turns 1.8". I know there is an adjustment on that but not sure what it is. Had this thing since late last year but just recently needed to get the 4th running. Watching all the things you guys are doing is also a help.

Thanks
Paul

[GJMATHEWS]

PJS,

I have recently changed my belt drive to a gear drive system that I designed and installed on my own. Stole part of the idea from my little blue machine X and Y stepper mounts.

My new resolution won't help you, but I can provide you my old resolution if you go to the thread Acceleration and Deceleration. My 4th axis resolution is posted there in my ini file. It is under W Axisspec line. r23.529411

To double check your new resolution number, you can use this little test I came up with. Put a piece of true square stock in place and use a level to set A axis so the stock is level across the centerline.
You may have to command line the A axis a degree or two at first to get the level lined up. Yes you can use decimals to get it exact. A3.75 for example. Be sure to G92A when you have it where you want it. Mark it with a pen and command line A3600 degrees and press enter. The command line code looks like this, A3600 just in case people who are reading this are asking "What the heck?" The axis will rotate 10 times. If your resolution is not on the money, you will see a big difference when the piece stops. You can go 36000 as well but if you are off by a full degree per revolution you won't notice it! After your initial setup, run the A36000 and check again.

When finshed, the level goes back on and if your resolution is good, the bubble will be in the right spot and the stock will be sitting level across the centerline axis. If you want to use a laser level and mark a spot on the wall for more accuracy you can do it that way as well. Just make sure it is a good laser level and not a J-mart special. With the spot on the wall marked, the next time you put the level back on, the laser should hit the same height as your mark on the wall.

As long as you have the same belt drive and stepper motor as I did, my ini file resolution should be good for your machine.

Hope this helps you out.

For those of you who are wondering, my new resolution with a 3.75:1 gear ratio is 20.833333333. The 3's carry out to infinity so I just ended there when I loaded the new resolution.

Guy

[Russ Revels]

I still haven't wired the lathe for real 4th axis but have been having a good time with it anyway. Here is something I worked on this afternoon for a friend. He is making an air powered line thrower for shooting a line over a tree limb to hang antennas. These are nose cones for the prototype projectile.

Russ

[GJMATHEWS]

You just gave me a bad idea for my Potato Gun! Why the heck am I wasting all my potatoes when I can make wooden sabot rounds for my potato gun?

I'm going to hell for sure now, thanks Russ! [lol]

[jrj5x5]

I still haven't wired the lathe for real 4th axis but have been having a good time with it anyway. Here is something I worked on this afternoon for a friend. He is making an air powered line thrower for shooting a line over a tree limb to hang antennas. These are nose cones for the prototype projectile.

Russ

Your friend can make a launcher really simple
he will need a

5 foot length of 1 inch conduit
a cheap or old musky pole and reel with some 80 lb test line on the reel
a rechargeable 5 lb fire extinguisher
a 1 inch diameter lead weight
Attach the one end of the conduit to the exhaust end of the extinguisher.
Tape the pole along the length of the hose of the extinguisher, tie the weight on to the line, drop the weight into the open of the conduit, flip open the bale, and just tap the handle on the extinguisher; the weight will go up to or beyond 200 yards, depending on the extinguisher how you set the rig up.
If the weight is launching to far, use a smaller extinguisher.
You can get a extinguisher with a air fill attachment so you can use your air compressor to fill it; or have it filled with just air at a extinguisher supply company for between 3-5 dollars. the air charge will last for many launches if used properly.
this can be very dangerous to point at someone. so be careful.
I used this method to launch line above ceiling tiles in factories so I could pull coax across long runs.

This setup is very common along the lake front in Chicago.
many people use this setup to launch power lines into the lake from the shore. (A power line is a trout fishing rig.)

You can buy the weights at any Chicago land bait & tackle.
Hope this helps.
Jim J.

[Russ Revels]

Good Morning Jim J.

The friend showed me his setup Saturday. It is a pvc pipe tank with a inner tube air fitting. He uses a bicycle pump and it takes about 10 pumps to get 30-40 psi in the tank. The unit uses an electric valve to release the air. He has a spinning reel attached to the tube and as the projectile flies it pulls the line. He is kinda like me, we get an idea in our head and then play with it until it works. Generally a shoestring budget would be a lot of money.

My fun in all this is creating the code so the CAMaster will cut the nose cones. It now does it from start to finish. Just another day in the PLAYHOUSE! :D

Russ

[Russ Revels]

Good Morning Guy,

With the CAMaster you can turn out a lot of sabots in a short time. The difference between using potatoes and sabots is you don't have to go looking for the potatoes after they are fired. I would want to recover my bullets for reuse. Paint them orange or something.

Big advantage of doing all of this in a playhouse vice workshop. I am not expecting to turn out any real production. Just a lot of sawdust.:)

Russ

[GJMATHEWS]

Angus, The bloodwood is in the house.

Angus has asked a special favor of me, so I cut him a deal. In a few days I will be milling a full size skull on the CAMaster Recoil Lathe. Angus was kind enough to supply me with a blank of bloodwood for myself as well as the one I am making for him. I have done this project in the past on a ShopBot. The photo of my Avatar is the skull that I am doing. Angus is looking for a little something for his man cave!

I invite all of you to follow along as I post as many updates to this thread as I can involving this project. There will be video as well so stay tuned boys and girls...

And don't forget to drink your Ovaltine!

Speaking of video, I will begin shooting the Banjo video next week. It will feature both the Shopbot and the CAMaster carving two identical plaques that pay tribute to Arthur Smith, the composer of Dueling Banjos. My plan is to mail the plaques to the family of Arthur Smith. It is my hopes that by doing this, I do not get sued by the corporation that owns the rights to the music.

More to come on this in the near furture.

[GJMATHEWS]

A customer down in Philly asked me to make them 4 legs based on the model that was provided by them. (See leg on left in photo)

The leg was drawn using Rhino and portions of the leg were laser scanned.

Visual Mill 5.0 provided the G-code for our FANUC 10 Series and 10 Spindle CNC.

Total project time start to finish...

12 hours!

My ribbon is a little off from the original and there are some small discrepancies. The original leg is not going to be used in conjunction with the others so the subtle differences are non-issue.

The 3D model of this leg can be milled on any 4th axis that can handle a 28 inch travel along the axis with a 5 inch throw. Bits used were a 3/4 inch hogging end mill, 1/2 inch ball mill, 1/8 inch ball mill and 1/16 inch ball mill.

The last photo shows the 3D rendering of the leg.

[Russ Revels]

Good Morning Guy,

Excellent work.
Once again you have put out the challenge for us trying to learn.

I still haven't converted my controller to 4th axis but am still using the lathe quite a bit. Seeing your projects gives me a push to get cracking on my controller. I keep saying I am going to change it and then start playing and my time goes and I still haven't done anything. OH Well, such is the life in the playhouse.

Russ

[GJMATHEWS]

Just made two walnut corbels on the CAMaster today. I did the program in multiple parts. Finished proof program will now be edited to reduce cycle time as well as to edit the tools used.

We can now manufacture this particular Corbel either 2 at a time on our CAMaster or 20 at a time on our 10 Spindle CNC Machine.

Enjoy the photos. Questions are always welcome.

[GJMATHEWS]

Here is the link for the Corbels on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I5NKZkLuw0

[Eric Mims]

looks really nice Guy. How did you accurately cut the curve, was that done on the cnc?

[Joey Jarrard]

Great Job man!!!

Thanks for the youtube link.

Joey

[GJMATHEWS]

As usual a customer called a week ago and decides that they needed these 4 legs 3 weeks ago!

I made them on the CAMaster and sanded them with w flap sander. They are 5.25 inches high and 4 inches at the widest diameter. The beads start out at .75 inches expand to almost 1 inch and recede to about 3/8's. File was made in Rhino and path-ed using Visual Mill 6.0.

The tools consisted of 1/2 inch ball mill, 1/8 inch ball mill and 15 degree V bit for final clean up pass.

4 legs in oak, 4 hours start to finish.

[GJMATHEWS]

A former employee lost his dad last week and asked us if we would make him a Cremation Urn. The only requirements were that it was 220 cubic inches inside volume and that it was made by us.

This is what I came up with for him. I need to finish sanding it this weekend and then shoot about 10 coats of lacquer on it. Having just lost my mom last month this project was a must do for my friend.

The actual project incorporates The CAMaster 3 axis abilities, the 4th axis carving abilities of our 10 Spindle machine, a wood lathe, a band saw, a wide belt table sander, an oscillating spindle sander, a flap sander and a crap-load of handsanding. Software was Rhino to design and calculate the inside volume and Visual Mill to generate toolpaths. Total time so far is 5 hours. I anticipate another 5 hours of handsanding and applying the laquer.

It was made with pride for Bob's father, but it was influenced by all the people in my life who are no longer with me. My grandfather, my brother Steven, my Uncle Bob, a dear friend named Steve Long who taught me Corian work and of course, my mother. These people and many others still living, have taken the time to impart the small bits of collective knowledge that allow me to think outside the box and come up with new and interesting things to use a CNC Machine for.

A photo layout will follow on my User ID page when time permits. Right now just 5 pictures to whet your appetite for CNC.

[Joey Jarrard]

Great work for a good friend. Loss is hard no matter who. Im sure he will like what you are doing for his late father.

Joey

[Russ Revels]

That is impressive work Guy. I'm sure Bob will really appreciate it.

Russ

[GJMATHEWS]

Thanks Russ. This is actually a project you could do when you get your 4th axis up and going, and you would not need Visual Mill or some other 4K dollar program to do it. Simply take a 1/16 section of your urn and generate a toolpath of just that section using 3 axis finishing and then index 360 degrees. In this case we are using 1/16 so your index number would be 22.5 degrees.

Your code would look something like this,

This is just an example and not the actual code to do this urn!

X1 Z1 Y-.25 Z1.03
X1.3 Z1.2
X1.75 Z1.75
etc, etc, etc...

With that finished, from whatever program you used, be it ArtCam, FreeMill or whatever you aspire to use... you are ready for the next step.

At the end of the program your machine will either return to home or a preset location on your table, and for some machines the spindle will shut off and all that other good stuff, change that code to reposition to the start of the actual cutting code you generated for your flute but make sure you have a safe Z height for travel and A axis rotation. ALSO ENSURE THAT THE SPINDLE IS STILL RUNNING! YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE THIS ALL TAKES PLACE BETWEEN YOUR M3 AND M0 OR M5 CODE!!! In other words, Spindle On/Spindle Off!

X1 Z1 Y-.25 Z5.0 OR WHATEVER SAFE Z HEIGHT YOU DESIRE AND THEN add in
A22.5
G92A

Then copy and paste your code and start all over again. Do that 14 more times and voilà!
X1 Z1 Y-.25 Z1.03
X1.3 Z1.2
X1.75 Z1.75
etc, etc, etc...

You can also use a loop commands, sub routines and a bunch of other CNC G-gode tricks so you do not have to cut copy and paste, but this is the elementary introduction to 4th axis for those who do not have CAM software with 4th and 5th axis capabilities.

:D

Anyhow, that is my useless bit of info for the evening. Nice to see some NEW stuff getting posted here.

[Russ Revels]

Thanks Guy,

I am having trouble with some of the connectors I decided to use. I may have to rethink that. I am working on a table and chairs for my grandson and so the controller is taking a back seat at the moment. Hopefully I will have the table and chairs done this week and I can finish the controller. I think I am down to a couple of hours on the controller and it will be ready to power up. I think the power up sequence will take severa hours as I plan to check each signal and motor individually. I don't need any more runaways. I doubt that I would be so lucky the second time.

Russ

[GJMATHEWS]

Thanks Guy,

I am having trouble with some of the connectors I decided to use. I may have to rethink that. I am working on a table and chairs for my grandson and so the controller is taking a back seat at the moment. Hopefully I will have the table and chairs done this week and I can finish the controller. I think I am down to a couple of hours on the controller and it will be ready to power up. I think the power up sequence will take several hours as I plan to check each signal and motor individually. I don't need any more runaways. I doubt that I would be so lucky the second time.

Russ

Russ et AL,

When the guys were building my machine they had ran into some problems shortly before I got there to pick it up. Josh worked feverishly on the machine until almost midnight. At this point we called it a night.

The next day, I gave Josh some space to work and was talking with Paul when I here and see my gantry take off down the X at about 582 miles per hour. I also see Josh hitting the E-stop and kicking at power cords. The gantry slammed hard and josh looked at me with a look that seemed to predict that it was inevitable that I was going to freak out. I looked right at Josh and said,
"Holy crap dude! That was funny as hell! [lol]Do it again!"

With that Josh relaxed. There was no reason to yell. I was actually thankful I was not standing by the gantry at the time. I am quite sure I would have suffered a minimum of a broken arm. To this day, we do not know how or why the machine did what it did, but I can tell you this, I respect the power of the servos that are on my machine!

Definitely check all connections and go so far as to dry run all your servos on the table before you bolt them to the machine.

[Russ Revels]

My runaway was the Y axis and it happened so fast I didn't have a chance to blink much less hit any switches. The whole Z assembly was on the floor in a flash. Luckily no permanent damage was done and I was able to reassemble everything and have it running is an hour or so. Definitely an eye opener though. The servos work great but are much more dangerous than steppers. I bought a new set of Gecko 320X drives to go in the controller. There are additional safety features built in.

I am getting closer. A little each day and I will have it done. I mounted the fan in the box yesterday and made the bracket for the air filter. I have to replace two of the fan screws with flat head screws, the pan heads interfere with the filter. I have new connectors coming today for my electric car and I will probably use the new type on the controller to eliminate any further delay. I have a couple of projects waiting on the MC and have to get it back online.

Russ

[james mcgrew]

Man!!! i want some servos!!!!!

:)

jim

[GJMATHEWS]

Jim,

I thought your machines were running on servos?

Guy

[james mcgrew]

nope all steppers

jim

[Russ Revels]

I would have gone steppers except pescado_loco had the servos and drivers available. I have been very pleased with their operation and as long as nothing goes wrong it's great.

Russ

[GJMATHEWS]

Well, here it is with about 6 coats of lacquer on it. Need to hit with the steel wool and knock down the fuzzies and the bumps and spray it 3 or 4 more time for that glass like finish. All in all, I am quite pleased at the end results of this one.

[Russ Revels]

Guy that really looks great. I am amazed at what you accomplish with your cnc skills. Actually I'm not so sure it is cnc but more graphic artist turned cnc artist.

Russ

[GJMATHEWS]

Thanks Russ, but...

I was never a graphic artist. I worked at a newspaper selling advertising but that is it. Most every project I do is a result of someone needing it done or someone saying "It can't be done." The stuff I do for myself is usually inspired by me needing or wanting it done, or someone telling me "It can't be done."

Either way, I am the type of person who will do something just to prove that it can be done for no other reason then to make the person that said "It can't be done." look stupid.

Twenty minutes later, I will be off and running doing something else or solving another problem within our company!

Guy

[Joey Jarrard]

Im on the phone with Jim. There is a guy named Rick that has a mod for Mach 3 for indexing lathes. This looks close to what we have been looking for Jim is talking to him as well about the ability to do this in wincnc. I thought of you

take a look

http://www.wizardsbyrich.embarqspace.com/#

[GJMATHEWS]

Joey,

I saw this already at another forum.

Simply put, G-code is G-code. ISO dictates this not me.

If his program is spitting out some kind of encrypted numbers that you can not look at with a simple text editor like notepad, then it will more then likely, not work for anything but the designated reader. Kind of like a CARVEWRIGHT or Thermwood Ecabinets.

If it is putting out text that includes an,
X,a Y, a Z and an A (or a whatever letter you designate your 4th axis as), and it can be viewed and edited with a text editor, then all the commands as far as tools, tool designators, rapid traverse, pause commands, spindle speed and what not can be edited and made to work on any machine that uses the X, Y, Z, and A (or equivalent letter for 4th axis).

Simply put... If I can edit it, I can run it!

[pescado_loco]

Ok Guy,
Nice job on the urn.
I understand how to move the A axis a specified # of degrees to do index work & spiral fluting. :D How do you make the A axis just spin like a lathe spindle?:confused:

[GJMATHEWS]

Ok Guy,
Nice job on the urn.
I understand how to move the A axis a specified # of degrees to do index work & spiral fluting. :D How do you make the A axis just spin like a lathe spindle?:confused:

Mike,

The servo does not spin fast enough to serve as a lathe motor. That is why I took the urn off of the CNC and finished it on the lathe.

Guy

[Russ Revels]

I finally got a chance to setup and experiment with the 4th axis on the MC3050-R. I wrote a few lines of code and the machine did what I told it. Stupid Machine!![lol] I guess I will have to learn more about what to tell it.

Actually I did have some success. I was able to turn a cylinder and then cut a spiral on it. I need to work on the the fine points to make the cylinder a little cleaner but over all I was pleased with the results for just a few minutes of experimenting. Hopefully I will get a chance to get out there again tonight to try some other settings and learn a little more. Play time in the "Playhouse" has been rather limited lately.

Russ

[GJMATHEWS]

I am so glad to see someone else put something in this thread that they made on their 4th axis besides me. I was beginning to think I was the only one!!!!

Fantastic job Russ! I finally got my my extended reach tools for my ER 32 collets so I can finally mill the Ipe Skull for Angus this weekend.

I have one more surprise coming for the all the 4th axis guys over at Vectric. There are 2 or 3 guys over there working with a new software wizard that are creating some nice stuff on cylinders. They are getting too proud of themselves so I am going to have to show them who is boss again with the ultimate 4th axis project.

Lately I have been very busy with gun stocks and custom matched carvings. Can barely breath or find anytime to just play. Thank goodness the kids are back to school. To bed early and I can play on the computer when they are not around!

Anyhow, glad to see you got it up and running Russ, Maybe for Christmas I will give you a file of that grape wrapped column you were looking for over at CNCzone!

:D

[Russ Revels]

Good Morning Guy,

So much for getting shop time last night. Seems like life has a tendency to get in the way sometimes. Maybe tonight. I want to play with the 4th axis and also cut a couple of 3 axis prototypes I have been drawing up. Just toys for the shop. The biggest advantage of my setup is that I don't have a schedule to meet.

I haven't tried the wrap type programs yet. They do seem to be pretty handy. I am going to experiment with the concept you mentioned about breaking the cylinder into segments and working each segment independently. Lots of things I need to try to get my head around.

I am looking forward to going to the Vectric gathering at Jim's in a couple of weeks. I anticipate learning a good bit.

Russ

[james mcgrew]

i have been studying all of this with a lot of interest, vectric does a good job of not over representing thier software and are pretty conservative with this,

i purchased bobcadcam a couple of years ago from an overzealous salesman who promised me the moon about his software, i have since learned the difference in 4rth axis and 4 axis work. to the purist at heart this represents 4 axis simutaniously working and reading 4 directions of code. the rotary use of a 3axis file "wrapped" around a cylinder is just that. this method is a workaround postproccessor method that is appealing to a lot of us as it can open up ways to use the lathe. "Viktor" (camaster owner) who rarely post here has accomplished and is trying to explain that this can be done in the code. it is new to me and still over my head as i do not have a working lathe in the shop, couple that with viktos broken english on the phone and i am futher lost. oh and i have never used the bobcad/cam. i believe the software Guy uses is fully capable of this and i still have a lot to learn

a lot is happening in this area of our use with the cnc machines, i am encouraged by all available info.



jim

[GJMATHEWS]

"...i have since learned the difference in 4rth axis and 4 axis work. to the purist at heart this represents 4 axis simutaniously working and reading 4 directions of code."

This doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps I am stupid but if the X, Y, Z and A were all moving at the same time it seems to me that something is going to cancel out the other or you are going to break a bit or a stepper/servo or seriouly screw up what you are working on.

For example if the Z is dropping as the A axis is rotating into it, the cut would be deeper and any material or carving on the incoming Y would be removed by the side of the bit. If the A axis were rotating away because the Y was positioned -1 of center, as the Z were plunging the Z would have to double speed just to keep up. In addition, once again material or carving approaching from the Y would be removed by the side of the bit.

Even on a 3 axis table when I am doing a pocket finish carvings or parallel finish carving, the X and Z or the Y and Z may move, but the other axis is only active for the stepover change. Does this mean that the only time a purist is doing 3 axis work is when they are running a spiral machining code.

When you run a 3D spiral machine code. During this operation the X, Y, and Z will all work together and many times you will see the lines of code will have an X, Y, and a Z movement.

To apply that same tool path to rotary at some point, something has to get canceled out or locked, meaning that not all 4 axes will work simultaneously.

I have ran many items on a 4th axis, complex items, www.bikerkickstands.com (http://www.bikerkickstands.com) not just cylinders with some relief carvings, the only time I have ever seen all four axis move at once was during initial positioning or after a tool change.

Peter Smid even describes a 4 Axis lathe as having to make independent movements because all 4 axis can not work at the exact same time.

At Atlanta last year I looked extensively at some of the big 5 axis machines that Onsrud and a few other companies had there. One of the machines position was controlled by what was referred to as TPC (Tool point center). This meant that the axis kept the router positioned perpendicular to the surface of the 3d model that it was carving and that code was generated using the TPC. I do not know if all the axes were moving simultaneously or not.

What I do know is that when I generate a program to run on the rotary, the program contains all the information to make all 4 axes move within that program. Sometimes it may be 1 at a time, it may be 4 at a time. I am not sure if this what a "purist" is looking for, but so far, have not had the honor of meeting any "purist".

Visual Mill 6.0 has 5 axis programming but to my knowledge it only positions the 5th axis.

Once again this comes down to semantics. Many times I have posted in a thread "your A axis, 4th, B, W, Rotary or whatever you want to call it..." Basically it comes down to what people call it.

Bottom-line, "MULTI-SIDED MACHINING"

Many of the things that I do on my "rotary output device" I can do on a tabletop using X, Y and Z. The 4th axis comes into play, when I reposition the piece I am working on.

The way I work and the way I run my machines must mean that I am an "Im-purist" in the CNC world! [lol]

[james mcgrew]

well i guess that provoked a good answer!!

jim

[GJMATHEWS]

Here is yet another 4th axis project that I decided to share. These style legs were normally carved by our hand carver because when done on a traditional lathe with an indexer using a point roundover bit and a router the end result still requires some handcarving because of the curvature of the leg.

Although the Y axis is locked in at 0 during this operation, it comes into play during the tool change. For the purist this is probably considered 3 axis work. Although if you decided to over-think the project you could suggest that it is only 2 axis work during the time that the A axis locks itself after each rotational comand while the Z and X axes work simultaneously to carve the profile. Then again, I noticed in the G-code lines that show the Z axis being locked into position as well so does that make it one axis work during those microseconds the axis is locked? However, G-code does not show an axis movement on the next line if the axis movement is the same from the current line, it will only show it if there is a position change. Does this mean the axis goes away entirely until it is needed? If so, where does it go? Maybe the purist can tell me!

(This is sarcasm for those who do not recognize it)

To quote from your previous post Jim...

"...i purchased bobcadcam a couple of years ago from an overzealous salesman who promised me the moon about his software, i have since learned the difference in 4rth axis and 4 axis work. to the purist at heart this represents 4 axis simutaniously working and reading 4 directions of code. the rotary use of a 3axis file "wrapped" around a cylinder is just that. this method is a workaround postproccessor method that is appealing to a lot of us as it can open up ways to use the lathe. "Viktor" (camaster owner) who rarely post here has accomplished and is trying to explain that this can be done in the code. it is new to me and still over my head as i do not have a working lathe in the shop, couple that with viktos broken english on the phone and i am futher lost. oh and i have never used the bobcad/cam. i believe the software Guy uses is fully capable of this and i still have a lot to learn..."


The emphasis is on the last line of this quote. However, I do agree about BobCad Cam and have read many negative reviews about this software.

Rhino was used to produce the 3D model and valley curves were extracted to enable 4th axis engraving to give the legs a crisp chiseled looked in the valleys. Visual Mill 5.0 provided the G-code.

While this model is not nearly as complex as the 3D model I use to manufacture the canes and walking sticks at www.bikerkickstands.com (http://www.bikerkickstands.com) the tool path strategy is the same.

To add clarity to this, this is an actual 3D CG Model. It is not a model that was drawn as a relief on a Y axis and then wrapped around a tapered cone. The model was drawn based on an existing leg from the customer and finished out to within .01 of the original. This is WOOD not NASA.

I have included "off machine photos" and the sanded photos of the finished leg. I want people to realize that what comes off of the machine, doesn't always look like the finished product photos you see all over the internet. Carving time per leg was just at 30 minutes a piece. A star sander and a flap sander provided the finish with about 5 minutes of sanding per leg. To sand by hand, I would estimate 20 to 30 minutes. Still very good time when you consider the amount of time to do these style legs the traditional way.

The legs were sent to the designer who later painted them and attached them to the finished sofa.

One other thing, in the background of the last photo you can see a pattern on the table top. It is for a gun stock that I am currently working on. The company was looking for someone with a 5 axis machine to mill their parts. I got the job by making a sample and telling them that all they ever needed was someone with a 3 or 4 axis machine that knows what they are doing. The 5th axis comes into play when you build the proper fixtures to mill the areas that they originally thought required 5 axis. Yes a 5 axis machine makes it easier, but at the cost, is it really worth it if you are only making 500 stocks a year?

[james mcgrew]

guy, in rhino can you see the full round and toolpath as well? or is it flat as in aspire or artcam and then turned rotary by a conversion?

jim

[GJMATHEWS]

guy, in rhino can you see the full round and toolpath as well? or is it flat as in aspire or artcam and then turned rotary by a conversion?

jim

First off, I use Visual Mill for most of my toolpaths and simulations. Rarely anymore do I cut sample pieces or projects when making the actual project. The on screen simulations from Visual Mill are so accurate that even the left over wood pieces that are still attached are shown on the computer simulation and will be present on a finished model during roughout and finishing. Tool collisions are also simulated and accurate to the offset of your tools.

Rhino is a CAD program. There are plugins for it. RhinoCam allows you to tool path and post process and simulate right in Rhino, as well as make your models and or vectors.

For information on Visual Mill and RhinoCAM check this link.

http://www.mecsoft.com/PriceVisualMILL.shtml

I had the opportunity at Atlanta last year to put one of the salesman from Vectric through the wringer. He was a foreign gentleman and extremely polite. I will admit that it is great software for hobbyist and professionals. I have played with the trial versions as well. For myself it is step back from what I am doing now. I have to reproduce to tight tolerances and there is very little room in what I do for creativity. The designers that contract us take care of the creativity. For the guys in my shop that would like to use the CNC machine and create their own ideas and have some fun on the machines, it is an excellent program. For someone who is new to CNC it can be springboard to what could be a great career or even a thriving business where clients are buying your creativity coupled with their desires. Relief carvings on cabinet doors comes to mind as an excellent use of the Aspire package but when trying to reproduce an antique carved ball and claw leg... well, I have to go with my software there. As far as 4 axis goes, Vectric needs to get on the ball and either partner with someone like Mecsoft, or develop the 4 and 5 axis programming abilities themselves.

I am willing to bet that this coming IWF 2010 you will see just about every company with a CNC machine or software pushing 4 axis setups and software for rotational work. The salesman will be making all sorts of pitches and painting pictures of gold in the eyes of anyone who stops long enough to look at some of the best programming that the companies have to offer. I would not be suprised if Joey and Paul ask me to do something for them should they be attending in 2010. (I will be only too happy to set something up for them!) People will stand in awe and there minds will be blazing at full speed as to all the wonderful things that they are going to do with this new found money maker.

I would not be suprised to see Jim's chess pieces sitting at the Vectric and CAMaster booths as well Jim. They will have people stopping and staring with awe. They will ask, "Did you make these with Aspire and CAMaster. The salesman will not lie. But a good salesman will only answer the question that he has too! Think back to when you purchased BobCad CAM. The salesman probably did not lie, but he also did not tell you all the facts. I am sure you were awestruck as well and your knowledge of CNC was limited as well

Projects, such as the 3D models I did for your Chess set incorporated a 28,000 dollar laser scanner, a 1,000 dollar software add on for the scanner. Adobe Photoshop, Claytools and a haptic device from Sensible Technology. I used 3D animation software to generate a face that was close to the queen's face on the chess set, from an existing 3D laser scan. The scan was done on a friend who was kind enough to let me scan her face a couple of years ago. The animation software allowed me to morph her facial scan into that of a man using the same .OBJ file. Because of the software, I was able generate 4 very distinct and different facial models in just a matter of seconds. In turn, those models went back into the Virtual Carving Software to further allow me to make them closer to the actual faces on the pieces. Certain artistic liberties were taken as well. I also used Rhino 4.0, for postioning and scaling of the models on the polysurface bases. Rhino 4.0 was then used to join all the independent mesh files into one and then convert that entire file into an .STL file. That file was then taken back into Claytools for reduction of the file size. Some of the files were larger then 500 Mb prior to reduction. Reading all this, it does not seem like a big deal but factor in that the process took about 3-4 hours on average for each piece and you will start too understand where I am coming from. Take that one step farther and lets add up all the machine time that you had to carve each piece. Couple that with the assembly, sanding, finishing... the list goes on and on.

Now picture the guy that looks at one of your photos of the king with a just a tagline that reads We used Aspire to make this. We used a CAMaster to make this. You are not telling a lie when you say this. But that poor fellow is going to feel like you after your run-in with the BobCad Cam software.

That is one of the reasons I try to post as much information about a project as I can. I do not want someone to purchase a 28,000 dollar laser because I said, I used it to make the models for Jim's chess set. Don't get me wrong, there are many times that I just scan and mill an object in just under an hour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xtd-xFukZQ4

This is one of them. But those owls also involved, Rhino, Visual Mill and 3 years of trial and error to get to the point of where I can say, "Yes sir, I can scan this statue today and mill it as soon as I get some free time on my machines. My personal projects are always put on hold for the all mighty dollar! I still owe Angus a skull for gosh sakes!

For me to teach what I have already learned through trial and error, past life experience and the many tutorials that I have endured from various software companies would take a few semesters of college for the average hobbyist. Let's throw in the fact that I suck at calculus, I suck at algebra, and advanced geometry is greek to me. Add to that the terminology that the software designers throw into their programs, (most of which have all been spun off from 1 or 2 pre-existing programs) that do the same thing, but wording varies from one program to the next, (curve, arc, lines, polylines, vector, border, lineart etc rest machining, containment field...) well you get the idea. There is so much to know and learn it is often difficult to keep it all straight.

Anyway, this all comes together to reiterate what I have been saying since I went public on the forums last year.

There is no magic button guys! You will only get out of a CNC machine what you put into it. If the software you buy does not have 4 axis processing capabilties, it does not mean that you can not use it to make things on a 4th axis. It just means that you will have to find a different way to go about it. Notepad is a great way to make some very cool things on a 4th axis setup, however, you have to understand the concept of how it works before you can make it work.

rrevels is on the right track with the 4 axis work he is doing now and I firmly believe you are going to see some great things coming from him. He is starting with the basics and building his knowledge from there.

The greatest concert pianist in the world start all their perfomances based on the basics of piano playing. Good posture and proper hand positioning. Thorugh years of practice, practical application and shear repitition they become masters at what they do. If you sit down at a piano for the first time in your life, I doubt very much you will play the 1812 Overture.

A CNC machine and the programming involved is the same thing. With the basics, practical application and shear repitition skill levels will grow.

A friend of mine had to remind me this morning that because of what I do, I have been earmarked as a Professional user of CNC and the software associated with it. Many times I forget the learning curve that I endured for the first couple of months during my initial introduction to what would later become my full time profession. It is not my goal to deter any hobbyist from CNC. On the contrary, CNC is the next Industrial Revolution for woodworking. Those who adapt will prosper, those who do not will continue doing things the old tried and true way. CNC is not a replacement for professional woodworking and the craftsmanship that my grandfather possesed. It is another tool on the workbench to speed production and enable more complex designs to be manufactured. As great as CNC is and in light of the many wonderful things you see created through the use of CNC there is one true constant.

I will repeat it again just in case you missed it.

"THERE IS NO MAGIC BUTTON!"

[james mcgrew]

so i take it that the answer to my question was no!

jim

[GJMATHEWS]

so i take it that the answer to my question was no!

jim


Do you really want me to answer this? :D

[james mcgrew]

no, i am aware of the visual mill software, some how i thought it was a plugin to rhino, i will say this in contrast to what one may think has been represented, the really decent fellows at vectric have never represented thier software to do anything other than what it does, when ever i am asked about the "chess players" i represent that one must have a file produced before it can be sliced in aspire, aspire did not make the file and while it could be done in 1/2's it is not done in the full round like .stl file that guy produced for me. in my now many conversations about this only one person has expressed am interest in doing something remotely close to this type of work. although i have some other projects in the works and have a school in fundraising process for the 3d scanning and file production as a ciriculum, the interest certainly is there.

this video more accuratly represents how i explain this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCrEJ2Ud5YU&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ethestate%2Ecom%2Flocal%2Fs tory%2F911977%2Ehtml&feature=player_embedded

[GJMATHEWS]

guy, in rhino can you see the full round and toolpath as well? or is it flat as in aspire or artcam and then turned rotary by a conversion?

jim


No. Rhino is not a CAM program it is a CAD program. RhinoCAM 2.0 is a plugin that runs inside of Rhino 4.0. If you have it installed you can see the toolpath go entirely around the 3D object you want to mill.

http://www.mecsoft.com/rhinocam.shtml

Guy

[Eric Mims]

I use Rhinocam to make all my toolpaths.. I really like it. I don't have the pro version or the 4th axis add-on, so I can only do 3 axis stuff, but it's still great.

Jim, here's a vid, if you go to about half way through, you'll see the 3d part with the toolpaths: http://www.mecsoft.com/Mec/Training/VMToolpathMethods/4AxisToolpathMethods/4AxisToolpathMethods.html

this is the same on Rhinocam or Visualmill, which are the same thing, except that Rhinocam runs inside Rhino and obviously uses the geometry you've created in Rhino directly.

[james mcgrew]

i have watched this one thanks!!

jim

[Russ Revels]

I finally got a chance to use Rich's program and here is my first cut. I had a couple of false starts by not having everything set correctly but finally got it together and it turned out well. I believe the next one will be much better. This spindle is a little small for the 12 facets to show very well. I probably should have only done 6 or 7.

[GJMATHEWS]

Russell,

Nice job... now add the details. Bit used? Cut times? Y Position? X Position... and so fourth and so on. Also are the facets flat or do they have a curve to them?

Guy

[Russ Revels]

Good Morning Guy,

I used a .25 endmill. If I remember correctly the time was about 10 minutes. The entered feed rate was 500 but was compensated by the rotary axis, I am still trying to figure how to set that. The part is only 10 inches long. Each facet is about .5 wide and are flat.

I had to take the end plate off the gantry because the Y axis moves about 1.25 inches side to side from 0 and I don't have that much clearance from the plate. I am going to cut down the plate so that it is a stop for the trucks but doesn't hit the z plate. I will have plenty of room then.

I am going to have to start looking for lathe blanks. Most of what I have are raw timber that I use on my manual lathe and they would be difficult to setup without using the manual lathe first. I am planning to get out today and make a lot more sawdust. I have today off work so maybe that will work. I do have some errands to run since I have been out of town the last three weekends though.

Russ

[jkindelspire]

We've done a few objects on our 4th axis, but it really doesn't get used much by the students here. This is a minaret I milled a couple of weeks ago for the grand opening of our new Digital Fabrication Lab here at the College of Design.

Specs:
Soft maple
20.6 in H x 2.8 in W x 2.8 in
Roughed w/.375 BN, 40% stepover
Finished w/.0625 BN, 20% stepover
It took approx 190 mins to run

[Mick Martin]

Very nice work [clap] a lot of detail, can you provide more information regarding tooling.

[james mcgrew]

We've done a few objects on our 4th axis, but it really doesn't get used much by the students here. This is a minaret I milled a couple of weeks ago for the grand opening of our new Digital Fabrication Lab here at the College of Design.

Specs:
Soft maple
20.6 in H x 2.8 in W x 2.8 in
Roughed w/.375 BN, 40% stepover
Finished w/.0625 BN, 20% stepover
It took approx 190 mins to run

nice work !!

[Joey Jarrard]

Very nice job. That is cool. [drool]

[jkindelspire]

I used a .375" ball nose end mill to rough out the model. I followed that with a .0625" tapered ball nose end mill for the detail. The .0625" end mill tapers from a .25" shank down to a .0625" ball nose. I believe we got the tapered ball nose from Shars.

Toolpaths were made with RhinoCAM. The roughing pass was a 4th axis roughing run with 40% stepover. The finishing pass was a 4th axis finishing pass run with 20% stepover.

[mikeacg]

I'm falling a little behind on my forum reading but didn't want to slight you by not saying something (even if I am late...)

You did a great job on this! The 20% finishing path got my attention. Did you have to do a lot of sanding?

Mike

[jkindelspire]

Hey Mike,

The only sanding I did was very lightly breaking edges/removing burrs around the windows on the base. The finish quality straight off of the machine was quite impressive, save for a few deep chatter marks left by the roughing pass.

-Justin
--
Justin Kindelspire
Digital Fabrication Specialist
College of Design
University of Minnesota

[mikeacg]

Good to know, Justin! A lot of times I don't run my recoil because of the time involved in most files. I'll play with that!

Mike

[eandico]

Mike it took about 3hrs to rough and finish pass on this stool colume and then I had another 1.5 hrs sanding and fiddling with it before I put finish on it.
Using Aspire.
The rotarys work very well. I should use mine more!!

Best,
Nick

[neal_meyers_jr]

Very nice stool.[fantastic]
I am looking forward to getting to know my recoil as well as you have. Keep posting [pic]

[jkindelspire]

That is one sick stool. Great job!

What sort of tooling did you use?

-Justin

[mikeacg]

Nick,

I have always loved that stool!

I can only use my recoil on weekends because of the generally long run times. During the week, by the time I get home from the day job I only have a few hours before I have to shut the machine down with worries about noise (I have a psycho neighbor who calls the cops if she hears a mouse fart). The larger stepover might make it easier as well as the enclosure I am building for my Stinger. With the door shut for the cooler weather and the machine in a box, I'm hoping that you can't even hear the machine from outside.

I've got some good designs (created in Aspire) that I can't wait to run when I get the chance!

Mike

[eandico]

Thanks Guys!
Neil its been a while.......I don't do as much with my rotary as I'd like. I am usually running flat parts or cabinet parts on the table.

Mike its what I do all day long (work in my shop) so I am always trying to get away from it!![lol] Sounds like you might be able to do a bit more when you get your setup done so your nibby psycho neighbor will leave you be. Maybe you should make her a gift and then tell her you are making gifts for others and she will leave you be????? Just a thought!

Justin, I rough cut with a .5 two flute endmill with a LARGE stepover and then I think I did the finish pass with a .25 ballnose.

Best,
Nick

[neal_meyers_jr]

I know it has been a while since I've been posting but I've been spending time with my Cobra. [cobra]

Hoping to use the Recoil with in the next few weeks.[fantastic]

Love the stools. I am assuming that you laid the skulls out flat stair stepped across the material and then wrap them? I have been playing with the Aspire software and am amazed every time I use it! [fantastic]

[mikeacg]

Nick,

I tried being nice to the neighbor. She hasn't bought firewood since I moved in 12+ years ago - she just helps herself to my woodpile. She borrowed a shop vac - it now has 3 wheels instead of 4. She borrowed a couple air cleaners - about a year later she had them out in her rummage sale. She borrowed a cordless drill and her male friend-of-the-moment slipped and broke the deflector on my pickup when he brought it back (he didn't mention it - I saw him through the window). The list goes on...
I don't think she is a very happy person but for now she is harassing the neighbor on the other side and leaving me alone. I'm planning to move into a bigger shop in the country during next year so will be leaving that mess behind...

Mike

[eandico]

Mike it sounds like you did the best you could!!

I'm out in the country and soooooo glad and lucky I don't have to deal with that kind of drama. I'm still working and it's 10:30!! My exterior dust collector is LOUD but no one is close enough to bother! I am lucky........

You will like it once you get out of town so to speak!!

Now get some rotary work on this thread!!![pic]

Best,
Nick

[mikeacg]

Yes sir!!!

[lol]

[Rande]

http://camheads.org/showthread.php?t=1593

[mezalick]

OR,,,, be like me and move into the center of a large city. The noise is 24/7.
No one ever bothers me. Can't hear over the gunshots and the buses.[lol]
Michael

Mike it sounds like you did the best you could!!

I'm out in the country and soooooo glad and lucky I don't have to deal with that kind of drama. I'm still working and it's 10:30!! My exterior dust collector is LOUD but no one is close enough to bother! I am lucky........

You will like it once you get out of town so to speak!!

Now get some rotary work on this thread!!![pic]

Best,
Nick

[neal_meyers_jr]

Nice work. [fantastic]

Looking forward to seeing the completed photos.[pic]